|
Post by Zach on Feb 24, 2020 21:47:14 GMT
File this deeply under "General Discussion."
Does anyone know of any good books or academic articles on the Occult in the Time of Napoleon? Examples of things I'm looking for are soldiers' superstitions, articles on Josephine's psychic, tarot systems used at that time. I'm specifically looking for academic/historic materials, not New Age-y kind of things. Not that there's anything wrong with New Age-y kind of things, but I'm more looking for historical documentation here.
|
|
|
Post by oldskirmishman on Feb 27, 2020 17:58:19 GMT
I'm sure we don't want to know why........
|
|
|
Post by Zach on Feb 27, 2020 18:54:00 GMT
The reason is unclear...
Actually, I'm working on a set of rules that use the tarot deck as a central feature. Why, you may ask? Well, I could use regular cards, but tarot lends a lot more character to the proceedings. Playing cards are also part of the tarot deck, for the record; but the standard deck of tarot cards in the English speaking world uses the Italian/Spanish suits (coins, cups, swords, wands), not the French ones (hearts, diamonds, spades, clubs). Probably this was chosen to make it more mysterious to the English-speaking market.
I came up with this idea after reading about Empress Josephine's personal psychic Madame Lenormand, who was the most famous psychic of her day. Napoleon thought it was bunk, for the record, but it was nonetheless quite popular, and Lenormand became rich. There is a set of cards named after her, but they aren't used much any more. Lenormand didn't actually use the cards that bear her name; if she had I would use those. She never wrote down what methods she used (probably regular cards and whatever popped into her head at the moment).
The artistic concept here is that using the tarot forces the player to think backwards to the mindset of Pre-Industrialized Europeans, instead of thinking about the game from a mechanistic 20th Century viewpoint. They add additional layers of meaning to the game, leading to a richer experience for the players.
Regardless of whether you think that tarot cards work as indicated (I do not), I will ague one thing: that as far as delivering historic outcomes in war-games, they are at least as effective as dice. In other words, this is a sneaky attack of mine aimed at undermining the entire corpus of war-game rules. And it will be more fun than Empire.
|
|
|
Post by oldskirmishman on Feb 27, 2020 22:25:42 GMT
ok.....I'm cautiously optimistic....
|
|
|
Post by wargameaddict on May 1, 2020 17:57:23 GMT
I remember some reference to an anti magic Golden Order involving King Louis XVI.
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 2, 2020 17:14:24 GMT
Updates? :-)
|
|
|
Post by Zach on May 3, 2020 5:25:54 GMT
I ended up getting sort of busy at work (at home). But I did start reading the tarot deck every day for practice. Which is weird because I don't actually believe that it shows you anything. Basically, you flip the cards and make free associations and abstract analysis based on what comes up. The Rider-Waite deck (which is the most famous in the US) borrows more than a bit off of Carl Jung. They aren't exactly Jungean, but the motifs on the card definitely make use of archetypes similar to Jung's. I'd be curious to see what some research would turn up. The guy who designed the cards was a member of the Golden Dawn (the same as Aleister Crowley) so he was definitely aware of Jung. In fact I can't see how tarot is not related to Jung. But anyway, the cards are actually sort of a good exercise for one's creativity, because they force you to make up a story that fits into the abstract meaning of the cards (even when one isn't obvious).
Now that said, getting the cards to represent the fate of commanders on the wargame battlefield is another story. A wargame can't have abstract mechanisms or it breaks down. So the cards need to be quantified in a manner so that they relate to the table top. But at the same time, that quantification has to relate to what the cards are showing, or else why use them? The entire point is to bring in some of the mystical character of the tarot deck itself (which, hey, maybe it does work?). The tarot system itself doesn't help matters; they really reject quantifications. Which makes sense when you consider that the movement they arose from was basically an anti-rationalist reaction to industrialization. The cards are so complexly interrelated that they sort of refuse quantification; for example, a card with number value of "2" in tarot isn't better or worse than a card with the value "5".
In short, it's sort of a complex project.
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 5, 2020 11:57:13 GMT
I think you can use the deck to give cards (and read the future) of the comander and liutenants. Maybe at the start of the game picking up 3 cards or 5 for each Every card has a tactical behaviour that the commander or brigadier has to follow every turn of play - maybe a charge because the card says that he will be a hero, or a retreat because the card says he will die. If you follow the card behaviour discard the card and pick another. If you do not want to follow your fate assign a malus in terms of performance of the unit or in terms of leadership and discard.
It will be a non competitive play because the lead of the game is mixed between the cards and the will of the player.
Difficult to explain in english... i'll develop a keyconcept to show you.
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 5, 2020 12:04:20 GMT
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 5, 2020 12:15:08 GMT
Example: lenormand card number 6 (clouds) General meaning is confusion.
If you follow your read: this turn the batallion he commands or the brigade he commands will stay put, no move no charge... only reaction if charged. The commander has confusion in his mind.
If you skip your fate: do whatever you want, but something bad will happen. Leadership -1 a buff pf the unit effectiveness.
It depends also how the game works, what base ruleset you choose.
|
|
|
Post by Zach on May 5, 2020 16:03:39 GMT
Exactly; you have to take the meaning of the card and convert it into some sort of in-game rule. I didn't use Lenormand because those are harder to find in the US and they don't have Major Acana in them. They're a modified playing card deck. The Rider-Waite deck is by far the best known in the US. It's a basic 52 card deck with 21 additional "Major Arcana." The advantage of the Major Arcana is that they can be used for table-wide effects; they're "event cards," in other words. And some of them portend complete disaster, which can be very useful from a game design perspective.
But then, this is where it gets tricky for me as a game designer, since my market is global. Rider-Waite is the most common tartot deck in the US, but not necessarily in Europe (I honestly have no idea what they use in Europe). Lenormand was popular in England in the 19th Century, but it was never actually used by Lenormand herself; she used regular French suite playings cards, if I remember correctly.
The same issue applies to using regular playing cards. If I use a US deck, that makes the rules impossible to use with a Italian/Spanish decks, which includes all the countries in Latin America. They only number cards to 7, and lack an Ace. So, it's very different, which makes creating a universal set of rules based on playing cards of any sort very tricky.
|
|
|
Post by suntzu on May 5, 2020 19:01:47 GMT
Why not draw your own cards Zach , I would guess you would pdf publish them when your ready
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 6, 2020 0:08:55 GMT
Personally i like very much the major arcana but i'm not totally convinced about the minor 52 cards that are like our classic play cards. I likea much visual tarot deck. Anyway it isn' the point... you may choose whatever you like. The point is: do you want to implement it in an existing ruleset or you want to create a new one?
- i like systems with "issue order phase" and the tarots may vary/affect this system.
- otherwise if you "ignore your fate" ignoring the main effect, the "combat phase" or "morale phase" may be affected.
This is only my brainstorm.
|
|
|
Post by 6mmfan on May 6, 2020 11:23:41 GMT
Wow this is a really interesting idea. I know nothing about tarots but using them in a game (with a specific interpretation) is a great concept. There are plenty of rules systems which use their own cards and it can work really well. Mostly its for activations and events but there a few fantasy rules sets which use them as a main part of the game.
|
|
|
Post by korhyl on May 11, 2020 0:50:55 GMT
Wow this is a really interesting idea. I know nothing about tarots but using them in a game (with a specific interpretation) is a great concept. There are plenty of rules systems which use their own cards and it can work really well. Mostly its for activations and events but there a few fantasy rules sets which use them as a main part of the game. give us some names :-) especially the ones based on activation and events
|
|